p/s pump banjo fitting

[bigdee47]

New to the group, and not sure I'm in the right forum. Please advise if this belongs somewhere else.
I have a 1999 Prerunner with a 3.4Lv6 engine, 240K miles. I'm rebuilding the steering system. Of course, one of the new items is the pressure hose from the pump to the steering rack. After trying twice, once with the old bolt and new copper seals, I couldn't get the banjo joint to seal. Then I bought new seals and a new bolt from the Dealer, and it was better but not quite dry (very slow flow behind one of the seals, but not drivable).

So I broke down and bought a new aftermarket pump. Although the new bolt, the new banjo end of the pressure line, and the new pump port fitting are all visually identical to the old ones, the logic of the design is a bit mysterious. I'd like someone to tell me "It's OK, just put it on and tighten it until all seams stop leaking."

The bottom of the bolt seats against a male flare fitting (brass) at the base of the pump pressure port. The very tip end of the female flare on the bolt is very rough, and clearly would not seal against anything, but the taper in the flare is well-machined. So since the brass flare inside the original pump is unscored, I'm assuming the rough bolt tip is not part of the seal. (Again, the original and new Toyota bolts appear identical.) When the bolt is put in finger-tight, I can feel it bottoming against the internal brass flare, and the banjo is snug, but can be rotated freely by hand. In other words, on tightening the bolt, 10 surfaces are all supposed to meet and seal several hundred pounds of pressure: the bolt head, both sides of the outer copper ring, both surfaces of the banjo, the inner copper ring, the welded nut on the pump, and the internal flare.
Sorry to be so wordy on my first post, but I'm trying to be complete, and maybe help out others who are running up against this for the first time. And no, I am not going to file or sand any of the surfaces, as ALL of the YouTube vids I've watched suggest, and I have done myself successfully on other makes. It will only widen the "crush gap" in this design.
Am I overlooking some other factor here? I'm asking cuz I want this car back together and running. I've been fussing with this for 3 weeks, now.
Thanks a lot for any advice.

 

[toyotafan]

New to the group, and not sure I'm in the right forum. Please advise if this belongs somewhere else.
I have a 1999 Prerunner with a 3.4Lv6 engine, 240K miles. I'm rebuilding the steering system. Of course, one of the new items is the pressure hose from the pump to the steering rack. After trying twice, once with the old bolt and new copper seals, I couldn't get the banjo joint to seal. Then I bought new seals and a new bolt from the Dealer, and it was better but not quite dry (very slow flow behind one of the seals, but not drivable).

So I broke down and bought a new aftermarket pump. Although the new bolt, the new banjo end of the pressure line, and the new pump port fitting are all visually identical to the old ones, the logic of the design is a bit mysterious. I'd like someone to tell me "It's OK, just put it on and tighten it until all seams stop leaking."

The bottom of the bolt seats against a male flare fitting (brass) at the base of the pump pressure port. The very tip end of the female flare on the bolt is very rough, and clearly would not seal against anything, but the taper in the flare is well-machined. So since the brass flare inside the original pump is unscored, I'm assuming the rough bolt tip is not part of the seal. (Again, the original and new Toyota bolts appear identical.) When the bolt is put in finger-tight, I can feel it bottoming against the internal brass flare, and the banjo is snug, but can be rotated freely by hand. In other words, on tightening the bolt, 10 surfaces are all supposed to meet and seal several hundred pounds of pressure: the bolt head, both sides of the outer copper ring, both surfaces of the banjo, the inner copper ring, the welded nut on the pump, and the internal flare.
Sorry to be so wordy on my first post, but I'm trying to be complete, and maybe help out others who are running up against this for the first time. And no, I am not going to file or sand any of the surfaces, as ALL of the YouTube vids I've watched suggest, and I have done myself successfully on other makes. It will only widen the "crush gap" in this design.
Am I overlooking some other factor here? I'm asking cuz I want this car back together and running. I've been fussing with this for 3 weeks, now.
Thanks a lot for any advice.

Just saw this. What aftermarket unit did you get? Can you take a pic?

 

[bigdee47]

Hi, thanks for your interest. Since my original posting, I've talked to several people--maybe two dozen--including the guy at NAPA Auto Parts here in Petaluma who sold the replacement hose to me, the guy at the parts counter at the local Toyota dealership, a personal friend who was a GM service manager for 20 years, and another friend who has run a high-end antique auto restoration shop for 45 years. I've received an education in banjo fitting design, name-brand parts marketing, the local Japanese auto salvage underworld in California (interesting Russian connections there), and all the usual bs that anyone gets when asking a straightforward question of old car hacks, like myself. All of this done in 95+ heat, while trying to help get ready for my daughter's wedding in one week. My "new" Taco has been idle on my lift for 5 weeks now.

You can tell I'm in a foul mood, but I'll try to be short and civil, without repeating what I said originally. It turns out the problem is not with the bolt or the pump output port flare. The problem is with the banjo fitting of the aftermarket hose. The OEM hose banjo "donut" is flat on both sides, with a hole drilled through the middle for the bolt. The edge of the hole is not dressed or beveled, and so the entire surface of the both copper seals is bearing against it's mating surface. However, on the repop donut piece, the inside edge of the hole is beveled, on both faces, thus not only eliminating half of the sealing surface, but creating an hydraulic wedge helping the fluid, under several hundred pounds of pressure, blow past the seals. Which it does. Where do they find the people to make stuff like this?
Fun facts: 1) There is an OEM hose available for my truck online through Gene Messer. I just ordered one tonight for a little over $300, with 14 day shipping. For another $100 bucks or so, you can get it the next day. They will even pick up the phone and answer questions. I won't believe it is the real thing until I'm holding it in my hand. 2) The local Toyota dealer wants $644 for one of the same thing, after you've gone through a 20-minutes serial number verification. That price last stated is correct, but morally indefensible. It is what it is partly because from a quick check on their computer, there are "only 32 of them available to Toyota" anywhere in the country. NAPA Auto said they'll give me my $130 back. 3) OEM parts are the ONLY parts you can be (reasonably) sure will work. All the others, there's some risk involved. (In my experience, this is also true for all other auto brands.) 4) When the vehicle reaches a certain age, and the dealers are no longer legally obligated to stock parts for them, the second-hand dealers rush in and snap them up for pennies on the dollar and sell them (online now, this used to happen at big swap meets like Hershey's) for half of what the dealer now charges for the remaining (32, in my case) instances. 5) The new OEM banjo bolt from the Dealer costs $3.70; morally pleasing but equally puzzling.
So here are some challenging homework problems, if you're still interested: (I said I would be brief. I lied.) 1) How much longer before the car you are driving now is too expensive (or impossible) to maintain, even if you do all the labor yourself? 2) I completely understand why an aftermarket manufacturer would purposely shave costs in making something that looks like the original, but is not as high quality, but why would the a.m. put in an extra, unnecessary, and therefore more costly machine step in order to (purposefully?) make something that doesn't even perform it's intended function?
I already figured out the answer to this second question, but I'll leave it here as a teaser.
This whole mess goes on 24/7, in much the same ways, in the world of tri-five Chevy restoration. Ask me how I know. Or not. I was just kind of shocked to find it here, in the "Lasts Forever" world of Toyota Tacomas.

Cheerio. I'll now be running (in two weeks) with an aftermarket rack and pinion box and an aftermarket p/s pump. I'm sure you'll be hearing more from me, later. Bye for now.