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Powertrain Woes on 86 toyota

old truck

New Member
I posted this last week in the pickup forum and received no comments. I'm assuming that was not the right place. So, I'm going to mirror that post here.

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New Member, 4th Gen Truck, 4WD Gone

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Hi everyone.

I hope to have some pics for you soon. This is my first Toyota. It was a gift to me from a friend. I used to do small bits of free work on it for him. Simple stuff like clutch cylinders and fuel filters. It's a 22R with 123,000 miles, many of which were on a fold-up tow bar behind my friend's father's motor home, hubs unlocked. Most of its other miles were commuting to computer work jobs by my friend. No rock crawling and such. Its biggest issue, so far as I could see, was some rust. Anyway, he was done with it and wanted me to sell it for him, and when I just never got around to doing that for him, he gave it to me.

After a while, I realized I needed a pickup without a canopy. My neighbors had one I could use any time, but it had a canopy and we all really needed a truck around here that we could toss stuff into the bed. So, I decided to make the Toyota that truck. The worst thing about this truck was its bench seat. It was torture, with bent and busted springs that hurt my back and butt. I had a dead '70s Accord and the buckets literally bolted in. All I had to do was file the mounts' holes an eighth of an inch wider. Then, with comfortable seats, I started liking this rig. I took off the canopy and added a lumber rack from Craigslist, a receiver hitch from a thrift store, and a winch from a garage sale.

One of the first outings went only three miles before a stuck front caliper was discovered and a rotor was already warped. The calipers are now restored to functional and the rotors replaced. Then came two shakedown cruises of over 100 miles and one of over 200 miles. Everything seemed to be working okay. Then, two days ago I was going only about 25 miles, round trip, part of which was a friend's steep dirt and rock driveway. On the way there, the truck started backfiring and not being able to idle. It also became hard to start, obviously flooding. Downhill and slowing down involved a series of backfires. Still, we went on to the destination. We locked the hubs and drove to the top (about 500 feet overall). On the way down, it was not running well, what with too much fuel. BTW, its a carburetor. It's also a 5 speed. It felt like the brakes were sticking again, as there seemed to be a serious dragging. I stopped about halfway down and had my copilot unlock the hubs. Still the dragging was there and getting quickly worse. We got about 50 feet from the bottom and it just would not roll any more. The clutch would slip but it would not go. I was stuck in 4WD. I could go to either 4wd range, but not to 2WD high. Even in 4WD tranfer case neutral, it would not budge. It would go backwards a few inches but no more. I finally got it out of 4WD by rocking it backwards uphill, clutching, and trying for 2WD. It wasn't easy on that steep hill. It make some bad noises.

Once in 2WD, we drove home okay, backfiring when off the throttle. The backfiring was fixed yesterday when I adjusted the float valve by bending the tab and slightly stretching the little spring inside the needle. Why the float valve suddenly messed up and overfilled the bowl, I haven't any idea. But it's okay now and is running fine with the fuel level where it's supposed to be in the sight glass. However, it's still stuck when in 4WD and has to be rocked to get back into 2WD.

So, there I am, as I type this. I need the 4WD around here, so I have to fix this. I'm hoping to get your collective wisdom to help me out.

Thanks in advance.

old truck
 

jazz

Mechanic
100 Posts
I don't know why you are having to rock truck to get it out of 4wd,,I know with my own truck you almost need a road map and gentle hand to go from 2wd to 4wd. Hope someone chimes in who has actually worked on the shifter.
 

old truck

New Member
At last, a reply. Thanks, jazz.

Well, I had to use the truck today to go on a hundred mile round trip to get some various building materials. I was trusting that 2WD would continue to serve. I loaded the rack with plywood and the bed with pier block and insulation, two weeks worth of groceries, and a keg of IPA. It was the heaviest load I have put in this rig. While I was in town, on a nice level parking lot, I tried locking the hubs with it still in 2WD. That was just like putting an automatic trans in Park. It would not roll, even with the clutch depressed. So, what I can tell is, it is either the front differential or the transfer case. I guess I will have to drop the front driveline to tell which.
 

old truck

New Member
Got the front driveline disconnected from the front diff. The transfer case is nice and free. Now I'm going to jack up the front and see what can turn when the hubs are locked.
 

old truck

New Member
The front was locked up, ring and pinion-wise. The spiders turned free and rotation of one side's wheel produced reverse rotation on the other side. While I was bolting the front driveline back to the flange on the diff, for some reason I reached over and tried turning the drain plug with my fingers. It was as loose as could be. I got a bowl and put it under and removed the plug. The diff was empty. It's probably been that way for a long time, as the previous owner did not but rarely even use 4WD. My using it the little I have, that long steep driveway was the last straw. My first guess is, I ground up the pinion shaft bearing. This is going to be a daunting repair for someone as old and feeble as I am. The worst part will be that the truck will be down once I begin the repair. Another problem is I live in a rainy place and have no shop at present. Best case would be I find a replacement diff to use while I repair this one.

I can see from RTV squeezed from many joints that someone has previously been inside both the front diff and the transfer case. I wonder who didn't tighten that drain plug.
 

old truck

New Member
Is it possible to drop the front diff out without tearing down the whole front end? I need to get this done before the rains come.
 

toyotafan

Toyota Truck Club Founder
Staff member
1000 Posts
Ugh. I just read all of your posts. Sorry about the diff being empty and locking up on you. If you got it rolling in 2wd you've got a rig at least but it sounds like you live someplace remote and cold with old man winter coming to stay with you for a while.

I have no idea of the front diff can be removed just by itself. Anyone?

Nice write up by the way!
 

toyotafan

Toyota Truck Club Founder
Staff member
1000 Posts
You say 4th generation, but what year actually? If you're talking about the pickup (hilux) then that's 83 to 88? Or the model before that?
 

old truck

New Member
Thanks for the reply.

It's an '86.

I was lying on the ground under it today, just trying to see what I might do there. It looks like I might be able to unbolt the flanges that connect to the independent front suspended wheels. I could pull the front driveshaft and maybe that crossmember under the diff. I see three shock mounts and hope I can just remove the diff and still have 2WD. That way I could take the diff apart and fix that while I still have the truck.

I'm in Washington State. The west slope, where it rains over 100 inches. We get some snow and there is little level ground around here.

I also have an '84 22R Dolphin motor home.
 
Last edited:

tbplus10

Moderator
Staff member
1000 Posts
Community Leader
Yes you can just remove the diff on that model truck, first year of IFS on Toyota trucks.
But for a few reasons you wont be able to drive or move the truck while its out.
Your diff uses what are considered hanger style mounts, this means they hold the diff in place but they arent load bearing or support structure for the front suspension.
But you cant roll the truck while the diffs out because if you remove the diff and still have the CV axles in theyll just bang around and tear things up, themselves included.
If you remove the CV axles from the truck the front wheel bearings will fail the CV axle stubs and splines hold those bearings in place.
 

toyotafan

Toyota Truck Club Founder
Staff member
1000 Posts
I lived in Washington state from 1980 until 1999, the last 12 years in Seattle ... so I know what you mean about the rains coming.
 

old truck

New Member
Yes you can just remove the diff on that model truck, first year of IFS on Toyota trucks.
But for a few reasons you wont be able to drive or move the truck while its out.
Your diff uses what are considered hanger style mounts, this means they hold the diff in place but they arent load bearing or support structure for the front suspension.
But you cant roll the truck while the diffs out because if you remove the diff and still have the CV axles in theyll just bang around and tear things up, themselves included.
If you remove the CV axles from the truck the front wheel bearings will fail the CV axle stubs and splines hold those bearings in place.

What if the hubs are unlocked and I made a part, like a piece of tubing with a flange welded to both ends that connect the axle flanges together and is stabilized to the those hanger mounts? Sort of a phantom differential? It would be an easy thing to make.
 

jazz

Mechanic
100 Posts
I would get a used diff or new parts required and make it an morning project. I have always drained and replaced all fluids on vehicles I have owned before putting them on the road. On one occasion chunks of gears trickled out of the front diff of a OT truck. Not a pretty sight.
 

tbplus10

Moderator
Staff member
1000 Posts
Community Leader
If you could make a set of stub ends to replace the CV axles and find a way to securely hold them in then yes you could still drive the truck.
After almost 30 years of wheeling these trucks with some of the smartest Toyota techs around Ive yet to see on come up with a good work around this problem.
Best bet is likr Jazz mentioned, get a different diff and prep it ahead of time.
 

old truck

New Member
Thanks for these follow-ups.

I live out in the boonies and far from towns with junk yards. I really want to get inside that diff and see the situation before I buy anything. If it's just the pinion shaft bearing, then that, and some new seals, is all I will want. If my worst case is the truck sits while I make the repairs, I guess that's not so bad.

I don't think I will need a second diff sitting around. It there is worse damage, then I might then opt for a used diff. I know the case and spiders are okay. Reverse rotation through the diff is smooth, quiet, and without resistance. There's just the threat that a bearing spit parts into the ring/pinion interface and made sausage. There was only a little fine metal in the bottom and on the magnetic plug when I stuck my finger up in that dry carrier. About what I'd expect from a bearing failure. It's the solid lock-up and the noises before I got back out of 4WD on that steep hill that have me worried.

I just wish I had a younger body to do the wrenching under the truck. It will be a challenge. I weigh about 140 after a Thanksgiving dinner. Hard work keeps me alive while it wears me out.
 

tbplus10

Moderator
Staff member
1000 Posts
Community Leader
Those buckets look like factory SR5 seats minus the center console.
Nice install on the winch, most aftermarket winch kits put the winch about 6" further forward of yours and cause severe front suspension sagging.
Yours looks like its just forward of the bottom front edge of the radiator.
 

old truck

New Member
Thanks, the garage sale winch was a built up mount added to a fold-up tow bar mount that someone welded solidly to both sides of the frame. I ditched the tow-bar and cut away some severely rusted through bumper and some of that tow bar mount. I did about ten fittings to get it to sit in there so tight. I have used it once to pull a tractor with a trailer full of firewood up to my woodshed when the 4X4 tractor started digging in under the load. I tied the receiver hitch to a tree and with a friend driving the tractor, we got the job done.

The S-10 lumber rack off Craigslist had to be widened 2 inches. The thrift store receiver hitch had to be cut and fitted, but is bolted in solidly to the frame. The seats made me like this truck. The Accord was left to me in a friend's will. I got this truck in appreciation for helping another friend out when he was in a jam. I've got too much work into it to give up now. Henh.

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Okay, here's the update on the front diff:

My regular helper pinched a 5th lumbar disc yesterday, so I have been on my own. Getting the rear flange on that front driveline unbolted was a killer. Couldn't get sockets on the nuts or the bolts and could barely get end wrenches in there after the U-joint guard was out of the way. I wonder if most people take out the tranny cross-member. All the front flange bolts could be gotten with a socket and a long extension. Pulling the CVs from the axle flanges was almost more than I could pull with a big breaker bar. I got them all loose eventually. It took me about two hours to get the diff dropped on the ground.

I had to build a weird version of a slide hammer to pull the axles from the spider gears. That inner large pinion shaft bearing's cage looks like steel salad. The rollers are all intact, if a little rough. The ground up cage essentially welded the the rollers in place, and that was the whole story of the lock-up. All three of the other bearings look great. There is some scarring on the ring and pinion teeth from running dry, but no busted teeth. For as much four-wheeling as I am likely to do around the fields and woods on two or three properties, I think the ring and pinion will continue to serve. It is beyond my tools and skills to remove the races from pinion shaft and carrier, so I guess that is going to a machine shop an hour away.

It was a long afternoon.
 

old truck

New Member
Today I built the phantom diff. I used my makeshift slide hammer as the basis for the dummy diff by making it bolt up to both the right and left drive shaft flanges with a couple bars in between the two. I ran a heavy angle iron welded across the two bars to the front diff shock mount bracket and a piece of square tube reaches back to under the right side shock mount bracket to support it in the rear with a bolt. It seems as long as I keep the hubs unlocked, this gimmick will be doing the same job as the locked up front diff. I can't see why I can't two-wheel wherever I want for now. I have driven it off the ramps and gotten it parked back out of my way.

Can anyone here tell me the normal ways to remove the outer race from the carrier and the inner from the pinion shaft? Do you just use heat on the inner to swell it off the shaft? If so, how much heat? I can see there are places where one can hit the edges of the outer race. Is it just driven out with a punch, or is it pulled out with a slide hammer that pulls it more evenly? I should probably have a slide hammer, huh? Can the carrier be warmed up some in the area and ice put on that outer race to release it?
 

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